A panel of representatives from each military service testifies before a hearing of the House Armed Services Committee’s military personnel subcommittee on racial disparity in the military justice system and how to fix the culture, June 16, 2020. Testifying are: Lt. Gen. Charles N. Pede, Army judge advocate general; Vice Adm. John G. Hannink, Navy judge advocate general; Lt. Gen. Jeffrey A. Rockwell, Air Force judge advocate general; Maj. Gen. Daniel J. Lecce, staff judge advocate to the Marine Corps commandant; Brenda Farrell, director of the defense capabilities and management team for the U.S. Government Accountability Office; and retired Air Force Col. Don Christensen, president of the national organization Protect our Defenders.
Transcript
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But if necessary, I will gently remind members when their time is up. So welcome everyone. Today we will be focusing on racial disparity in the military justice system. We’re here to discuss the inequalities and injustices that people of color experience in the military justice system, including those in criminal investigations, courts martial and nonjudicial punishment. The fact that we live in a country with ingrained racial bias in no way excuses or justifies the perpetuation of racism in the United States military. Our service members commit their lives to protect our country. We must commit ourselves to ensure that the military treats service members of color, equally and justly. We will not solve this problem by hiding it or denying it. We will not solve this problem, pretending that it is solely the result of uncontrollable societal problems by pretending that our actions do not contribute to the continuation of injustice by refusing to seek change. Because we are so comfortable and confident in quote the ways things have always been done unquote, the way things have always been done is wrong. The results are repugnant. I hope that all our military leaders in the room are prepared to acknowledge the need for a reckoning and prepared further to institute bold measures to fix the inherent bias in the military justice system in America. G A owes Most recent report found that black service members were more likely to be the subject of recorded investigations and more likely to be tried in general and special courts martial than their white counterparts. Importantly, Joo found that the results were statistically significant. Racial data on nonjudicial punishment was not uniformly collected. Protect our defenders in their investigation found that Black airman were twice as likely to face nonjudicial punishment than white airman. If history provides us some solace, the military led the way in integrating our black service members long before schools or lunch counters were integrated. In 1948 President Truman signed Executive Order 99 81 directing equal trip treatment for our black service members in the military. Subsequently, the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps complied. Quote. In 1949 the Air Force issued a quote Bill of Rights for Black Airman and the Navy propose a recruiting program to enlist black sailors. The Marine Corps eliminated its segregated training platoons and various post facilities unquote. But integration did not equal acceptance. Racism and discrimination, both personal and institutional, continued People of color who wish to make a career in our military have face uphill fight, and we’ve done too little to assess them. 72 years after integration, the fight for equality and justice continues. We still struggle to carve out an equal place for people of color struggle to ensure they have the same opportunities to serve in advance in their careers and struggle to ensure them equal justice. We have to look no further than the military leaders in this country, almost exclusively white men. It was heartening to note that General Charles Brown has become the Air Force chief of staff just this week but 72 years. I would like to hear the first panel what needs to change, what needs to be done to bring transparency to the system and ensure accountability for every commander who uses the military justice system in a biased and discriminatory manner. For the second panel, I would like to hear how, as the senior military lawyer for each service, you could educate leaders at all levels to recognize bias in the military justice system and what you can do to ensure that justice is dispensed fairly and consistently. Before I introduce our first panel, let me offer ranking member Kelly an opportunity to make his opening remarks. Thank you, Chairwoman Sphere, and thank the witnesses for being here tomorrow. Thank you for holding this hearing at such a fitting time as Americans across this country of all backgrounds are struggling to better understand racial disparity across society at large and detect substantive actions that actually make a difference. This is a fitting time to have this year. I want to welcome both of our panels to the days here. We appreciate your attention and commitment to remedy a very grave problem that, if left unchecked, could stand undermined the readiness of our armed forces. Racial disparity is a very riel societal problem, and across various criminal justice system, we see lopsided rights of arrest, prosecution, incarceration that could should concern every American. This country has struggled to confront and fix that problem for decades, and we continue to do so. But as the events of the last several weeks demonstrate, we have a long way to go as a former district attorney and city prosecutor, I’ve seen my share of it, and there’s something neither I nor any of us can ever shy away from or get complacent about. This is a problem. We all collectively nature, confront it head on. Where do I think we can and must make? A very real difference is in our military. I’ve served in the military for over 33 years, commander of the battalion and brigade levels, and I know the very real bond our young warriors share, regardless of background. I was very proud two weeks ago when 371 soldiers from Mississippi in the 155 Armored Brigade Combat Team. All volunteers answered the call and deployed to Washington for the civil unrest on three hours notice. They were a very diverse group, with 43% from either African American or minority backgrounds. They trained together. They deployed together, and they did their duty as a team together, which is what makes our military so great. They answered the call, Did that what they were asked to do, and they did it with honor and integrity. They and all service members place their trust in each other and their laters. And that is why our military is so formidable. This isn’t contacts that lays a bit of the foundation for what makes it suspected and military justice so troubling. For May, leaders need to do the right thing. Always treat every soldier, sailor, airman and Marine with dignity and respect, and protect that trust that binds warriors together. If racial disparity persists, it always has a negative impact on recruiting readiness and the culture of our military. Understand, that’s just statistics the effect. But what we needed to understand is the cause fashion, the right remedies, and we need to do it quickly. Section 54 1 of the F Y 2020 Indy A task the second half in consultation with the services to evaluate the causes of racial, ethnic and gender disparities in the military Justice is, um, and to take steps to remedy disparities. I’m interested in hearing from eye witnesses today on any ideas for rooting out the cause of this problem and potential solutions and where the department is in their evaluation of colleges and remedies. Understand the Air Force’s initiating an inspector general investigation with panels of experts and support to explore the problem or holistically. I’m interested in hearing from all the services about any similar or complementary initiatives. I do know that the space force is not here today and is a new force. I think they have a chance to get it right from the start. They can be groundbreaking and ground setting because they start from zero. Madam Chairwoman. I think this is a great start. I look forward to the day’s discussion. I want again thank the witness for attending today’s hearing and share their collective expertise with us and I yield back. Thank you, Mr Kelly each witness will have the opportunity presented her testimony, and each member will have an opportunity to question the witnesses for five minutes. We respectfully ask the witnesses to summarize their testimony in five minutes. Your written comments and statements will be made part of the hearing record. I ask unanimous consent that non subcommittee members be allowed to participate and ask questions. After all, the subcommittee members have had the opportunity to ask questions without objection so ordered. Let me welcome our first panel. Tired Colonel Don Christiansen, president of Protect Our Defenders, and Miss Brenda Farrell, director of defense capabilities and management team of the U. S. Government Accountability Office. This Farrell is joining us. The WebEx welcome. All right, let us begin with Colonel Christiansen to Roman Spear ranking member Kelly distinguished members of the subcommittee Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you to examine the issue of racial disparities in the military justice system. Like our country, the military has a long and painful history of mistreating racial minorities. Black service members have continued to be prosecuted and punished at a much greater rate than white counterparts. Moreover, the suffered promotion rates in our vast they suffered. Lower promotion rates are vastly underrepresented in the Officer corps, especially at the general and flag officer ranks, as part of Protect Our Defenders ongoing efforts to improve the fairness of the military justice system. In 2016 we found a Siris of Freedom Information Act request to each service seeking 10 years of data on the racial disparities in the military justice process. The data was provided to us and rates per 1000. After eventual receiving the data, we released a study of our finance in June of 2017 that showed widespread racial disparities and all of the services. We examined a total of 32 years of data, and in every single year, black service members were punished at a significantly higher rate than White Service members. Based on our findings, Congress mandated a Government Accountability office revealed the disparities, which was completed in March of 2019. The jail also found significant racial disparities, but most shockingly, the G a O found that none of the services had done anything to find the causes or solutions for disparities. As part of its answer to our 16 2004 requests the Air Force stated it had created Quote a cross functional team led by diversity Inclusion experts in quote to quote, collect and analyze the data and recommend policy changes process modifications are additional study is appropriate. In July 2017 we founded additional FOI requests seeking the identities and the qualifications of the team members, as well as the team’s findings and recommendations. In addition to other information, this was the start of a grueling three year long struggle to force the Air Force to meet its FOI obligations. Thankfully, we were represented by the L Veterans Legal Services Clinic, which enabled us to file suit in federal court. Despite numerous efforts by the Air Force to conceal its findings and recommendations of the team a federal judge eventually ordered the Air Force disclosed requested documents under the threat of sanctions. The documents we receive are startling. The panel and fall up study by Air Force Manpower or a one found that the racial disparities were quote consistent and persistent and getting worse. Air Force admitted that the numbers work unquote concerning and the importance of having quote equitable and consistent disciplinary processes. The’s finance were made in 2000 and 16. And despite concluding that the that the Air Force quote must clearly address the disparity in some way quote unquote, the Air Force appeared to act on the team’s recommendations and address the issues. Another disturbing finding viral review of the documents is the Air Force Legal Community’s efforts to discredit the data is showing their own data showing significant racial disparities. Despite the strong conclusions of a one, J has attempted to discredit the importance of the data specifically in the background paper that Jay created in 2016. They claimed that the disparity between blacks and whites that are punish convey result of a small number of additional actions. Lieutenant General Rock, World Air Force judge advocate general reinforces message recently in a briefing to the Air Force four stars where, he told them, Quote even a few additional disciplinary actions have a far greater impact on the report rate for 1000 for Black your women end quote. Due to their smaller number, General Rockwell didn’t want onto misleadingly illustrate this point by using a racial of 10 to 1 of white airman to black German rather than the actual rate of 5 to 1. The idea that the decades long disparity can be explained by a few additional disciplinary actions is fault, and J. A needs to stop this line of argument. The disparity and nonjudicial punishments in Calendar 19 and Air Force alone represents an additional 520 Article 15 for Black Airman, not an additional few, as implied by by the legal world. In other words, Black Aerbin received approximately 1105 article fifteens last year. If they were punished at the same proportional rate of White Airman, they would have only received 585. The impact racial disparities across all the services in the last 10 years would easily be in excess of 10,000 additional extra punishments. Met it out against black airmen are black service members, not a few additional actions. Air Force needs to focus on flaming solutions and causes, not discrediting the significance of its own data. Were you released a report in May 26 of this year and it had an immediate impact. My credit Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force, right in General Goldfein for acting quickly by ordering an investigation. But what must not be forgetting for gotten is the action initiated by the Air Force last week to investigate disparities would not have occurred if they had been successful in keeping this information from being disclosed. This hearing today would not have been held, but for the fact we were willing to force the Air Force to disclose damning information that it wished to keep hidden. This is a reminder of the importance of transparency and why the military must faithfully meet its Floyd obligations. How much further could the Air Force be in addressing the racial disparities of it had put the energy into finding solutions in 2000 and 16. Rather than seeking to cover up its embarrassing failures, I look forward to any questions you may have. All right now we are going to hear from Miss Brenda Farrell from the G, a O that has recently provided the report This Farrell Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, ranking member Kelly and members of the subcommittee Thank you for the opportunity to discuss jails. Findings to recommendations about racial disparities in the military justice system, the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the UCMJ A was established to provide the statutory framework of the military justice system. It contains articles that punished traditional crimes such as unlawful drug use, an assault as well as unique military offenses, including desertion. Every active duty service member of the Army, the Navy, the Marine Corps, the Air Force and the Coast Guard are subject to the UCMJ A, with more than 258,000 individuals. Discipline from fiscal years 2013 through 2017. A key principle of the UCMJ A is that a fair and just system of military law can foster a highly disciplined force. My statement is based on our report issued in May 2019 on the military services capabilities to assess racial disparities, among other matters. Let me briefly summarize my written statement. My statement is divided into three parts. The first part addresses the collection of race and ethnic group information in the military services, investigations, Military Justice and Personnel Database is among our findings. We found that the services did not collect information about race and ethnic group and these databases. Thus they were limited in their ability to identify disparities, which are instances in which, in racial or ethnic group, was overrepresented specifically the number of potential responses for race and ethnic group within the 15 databases across the services ranges from 5 to 32 options for race and 2 to 25 options for ethnic group, which can complicate cross service assessments. To address these inconsistencies, we made recommendations to do D and DHS, the parent organization for the Coast Guard, to collect and maintain race and ethnic information in the investigative and personnel databases using the same categories recently established in the Uniform standards for the military justice databases do. De and DHS concurred with these recommendations. The second part of my statement addresses the extent of racial disparities, investigations, disciplinary actions and outcomes. Since the services did not collect race and ethnic group data consistently, we analyzed actions initiated and recorded in each services, investigations, military justice and personnel databases between the years physical years 2013 through 2017. To help ensure we had consistent profiles for service members, we emerged records using unique identifiers such as Social Security numbers that were common among the military services database. We used all of these standards to consolidate the various race and ethnic values. We conducted multi variant regression analyses to test the association between a service member’s characteristics such as race and ethnic group and the odds of military justice action. By using this approach with available data, we found an association of a disparity at stages of the military justice process. But findings are inconclusive regarding other stages. For example, we found the Black service members were more likely than White Service members to be subjects of recorded investigations in the military criminal investigative databases in all of the services. Further, Black Service members were more likely than whites service members to be tried in general and special court martials in the Army, the Navy, the Marine Corps and the airports. Data for the Coast Guard is not available. The last part of my statement addresses you d Evaluating the causes of disparities, we found that duty has not comprehensively evaluated the causes of racial disparities in the military justice system. We recommended that they do so to better position them to identify actions to address the spirits duty, concurred Madam chairwoman. In conclusion, we believe that for the system of military law, to be recognized is fair and just by both service members and by the American public duty and DHS need to take actions to implement the recommendations in our May 2019 report. That concludes my statement. I’ll be pleased to take questions that you were the others made 1/2 Cerrell. Thank you. You did it with eight seconds to, um left. So let us start with the Colonel Christenson. You know, I was stunned in reading the report that you found that in the Air Force, a black service member was 71% more likely to be charged for nonjudicial punishment, I believe for court martials or non judicial punishment. And the army, it was 61% in the Navy, it was 40% more likely. And the Marine court was 32% more likely. So clearly the Air Force is the grossest outlier. Although they all appear tohave statistics that there, um, high degree of bias. It appears to me that you had to work very hard to get that FOIA request. Complied with. How much time did it take for you to actually get that information from the airport? Well, that’s great question. So there were two separate FOI requests. The 1st 1 where he just asked for the raw data we got fairly quickly. Their force answered, I believe, within a month just raw data. But in that first Roy request, they talk about establishing this disparity panel that I thought a great they’re really gonna look at this. And when we didn’t follow up, that was It’s been three years since we filed that fly request, and we still have not got all the documents that we requested. For example, I have no idea what the qualifications of a single person on that panel were. Uh and we had to go to federal court. We filed suit in December of 2017. We did not get a final judgment from the judge until March of this year s. So it was an onerous task. I mean, we were very fortunate that had a great group of Yale law students in Yale law professors who were willing to fight this, But the average person looking for FOI evidence cannot get that kind of support. And so it was over a year and three months before you got the data that you request. That end was over three years over three years, Three years? Yes, it was a three year struggled the first request. We took about six months for everybody to get the information to us. But when it came to the disparity panel, its findings and its recommendations, that is a three year struggle. So after your report came out with the stunning statistics, when did you hear from the Air Force? I’ve never heard from the Air Force for any of the other services. I have never heard from any of the services. None of the services reached out to us to talk about the report. Our findings? What do you think the military should do to show that it’s taking these disparities? Disparities? Seriously? Well, I think the first thing we needed realizes that this is information that I know. The Air Force’s track for decades back to lease the eighties and nothing was ever done. Eso There’s a long track record of doing nothing. When our first report came out in 2017 you know, that was an opportunity had been put into the public. Clyde caught a lot of media coverage. Congress was concerned about it. That was opportunity to show they were gonna do something about they haven’t, uh, general Goldfein, I think, took the first step by ordering the investigation. But the thing to remember about that investigation, that’s an internal Air Force investigation by the I G. Who works for General Govert. Fine. Uh, they need to be looking at outside sources to come in and talk him about that. Experts on Disparity Truly, people understand what the causes are, and I think one of the things they have to accept because what we have seen to the limit to degree, they have looked at it. They have tried to look exclusively unconscious vice. They have to accept that there’s also actual buys, their action. People are prejudiced serving in the military. I don’t think it’s most. I don’t know if it’s many, but that we do have that. There was a naval officer who was just accidentally disclosed his racist beliefs on on Facebook by life. Stream made a conversation between him. His wife there was horrific Lee racist. He is an academy grad and the retired captain. We have to accept that this isn’t just in Pless unconscious bites, that there are people who don’t like black people or other minorities and don’t want him in the military. They have to try to root this out. But leadership I needed to stand up decades ago. Need to stand up in 2016. Needed stand up in 2017. Need to stand up in 2019. That has to show that they really care about this on this Farrell. All right. Um, what would you want us to make sure that the Department of Defense does moving forward. Thank you, Madam. Chairwoman Azzan noted in my statement, we think implementation of our recommendations are key. In fact, I think the recommendations in our report our road map for Dia de with the final chapter being the causes of the disparity and taking steps to make corrections, I think continued oversight in this area is necessary. Especially as my colleagues on the panel has noted these disparities have been lingering for some time now. We have hard, reliable data to help pinpoint where there are differences so that the body can target where to start looking for the causes of these. So I think continued oversight is necessary. We noted in the report that the National Defense Authorization Act with this care 2020 have provisions that were consistent with several of our recommendations of some deadlines have been set in terms of when the U. D must begin to look at, say, the causes of disparities. But there’s not an end date. I think it was recognized that more data was needed, and this was going to be a very complex review. But in order to make sure that that record is completed, I think congressional oversight is gonna be very important. Thank you. Thank you, Mr Kelly. Thank you, Chairwoman Spear and first up, the cause of racial disparity across society and across the motive server is elusive, except for those who are blatantly races. And there are those in every organization, including the military. What recommendations, if any, do you have that would be helpful to the departments in getting after the causation and fashioning of remedies and also understanding the causation that aren’t those that are intentional those cultural or or whatever disparities that are caused by cultural? What? What remedies with job. Thank you. Rank. Ranking member Kelly. Well, I think, uh, General goat finds taking a first good step on that by actually kidding the input from the rank and file of services we’ve heard from protect protector defenders since their first report came out of segment board from a lot of Black service members who talking about what they’re experiencing, I think Theo Air Force particularly, is an incredibly white officer corps, the fighter pilot communities less than 3% black on. So I think there’s a lack of understanding what the Black Service members and other minority service members air facing the difficulties they faced. A lack of mentorship in 2015 Air Force times were a really good article about promotion failures for Black Service members. Failures to get definite promotes the fans air to get in residence. PM me and so getting this service members at the top to understand that there are issues their impact in the way blocks progress throughout the military and other minorities. Progress is really a key to that. And second, I want to understand the significant of years of service on this analysis. As I recall in the G A O report, you included years of service in your analysis for the Air Force data, but not the other services, because it closely correlated with Ryan. Are we looking at generally a problem that has focused primarily on youngest sovereign members across the services. And if so, how does this data compare nationally to trains? And I for you, man, thank you for that question. Uh, we did do a by very great branch and analysis as well as a multi varied where we would control for certain characteristics such as years of service or rank, and each service model was a little bit different. We were very closely with the services in order to understand what was going on with their particular service. Uh, as far as a comparison between older and younger, we did not develop that particular analysis to target. In terms of that, we are aware of some studies that are done in the private sector. But we did not try to make any comparisons of what’s going on the military justice system with what’s going on and Silver civil justices. I hope that answers your question. It doesn’t back. Mr Christians are Colonel Christians, and I’m sorry I want to go back in my career. When I first got in 30 something years ago, I think I had the first African American first sort of the Mississippi Army National Guard that served under my command. But over there, so you rarely saw any senior. And she goes, I can name on one hand. The senior 0506 level officers who were African American in the Mississippi National Guard, which is Mississippi’s 40 40% are African American now I can’t count. And many of those were my soldiers who are meant toward I personally made a different who are Sergeant Major, sergeant first class, who were first sergeants. The last three brigade commanders that followed me is a brigade commander, all African American not because they’re African American cause that the best we got the absolute best. So now it is there. So you served a sport during the data that we collected from 2010 to 2014 you served in the Air Force and one of the chief legal rose. So what did you see and what did you do? And now, with the experience you have now, what would you do now different to change the outcome of what happens in the Air Force to carnal Christians? That’s a great question, and I and I agree the Army actually is further ahead in Officer Corby in African American Air Force lags behind the rest. Uh, what did I see? Uh, look, I never prosecuted someone that I thought was innocent. Of course, I don’t make the prosecution decision. Somebody else does. As you know, uh, I don’t think it was necessarily case that innocent people were being brought trial. What I thought the problem was is that, uh, others were getting the benefit of the doubt. Based upon whether the relationship implicit by its explicit pies, whatever it was, they were getting the benefit of the doubt. So, for example, two years ago, the Air Force decided to prosecute a black N C O for being six minutes late toe work, literally six minutes late to meeting. Excuse me. And he has a court martial conviction. That’s a decision that truly should not have been made. I don’t care. Was an article 15 turned around or not? Just the optics of it. What did I do? Well, one thing I was very concerned about and raises an issue was the lack of blackjacks. We do not have enough. We have one of the great former one sitting behind me and Joe her colonel. Or but when I retired where I believe we had one of 124 colonels in the Jag corps were African American. Eso I encouraged the African American word for me to try to make a career out of it, to be concerned about it. Uh, I sat on a promotion or excuse me on a selection board. I encourage the people who also sent out selection board to focus on finding good African Americans to come into Jack or because I think part of that experience of the day would bring in would be important health without bias. What have I done since obviously filing this report? It was important to me. I knew the data was there and it troubled me. Throughout my career. I never saw leadership really address it, and I thought it was important to bring it forward. Thank you, Chairwoman. Are you back? Thank you, Mr. Kelly was were white and CEOs that were six minutes late, courts martialed. I have never seen anybody court martialed with soul offense of being six minutes late to meeting. Other than its African American, it’s really stunning All right, Miss Davis, Um, you’re recognized for five minutes. Thank you. Thank you, madam Chair. And you are witnesses. Thank you for joining us. Ah, Colonel Piston said first. How can you talk with maybe without getting in the weeds too much a little bit about, um, how you gather your your statistical information. And I just wanted to get a sense of the assist ical statistical analysis, whether that was very different, um, from Miss Barrels. And and And then I’ll ask Miss Farrell. It’s just talking about that And whether you think information was concealed and sort of your level of confidence. I guess with with the the analysis and whether it revealed sort of really what you’re trying to get out here. How do we do that? Thank you, Congressman Davis. So for the initial FOIA requests we requested from each service 10 years of data showing their raper thousands of court martial in article 15 for African American whites and other minorities. Uh, we received that data from everyone except the navy only gave us two years of data. The Coast Guard never responded. The, uh, data we got from the Air Force was the best. I knew their process would track Well, ah, very confident that the data that they provide us is accurate. And that what we saw out of that data waas a historical disparity of racial where blacks were prosecuted and given Article 15 on a much greater rate and that it was getting worse, not better. And that’s what we saw across all the services. Uh, the Army did not track nonjudicial punishments. The Marine Corps Unnie tracked by convictions they didn’t. So we don’t know what how many cases were charged, His convictions, the Marine Corps. It was interesting. As theme or severe, the punishment degraded the disparity. So, for example, by the time we got to general courts martial in the Marine Corps, the disparity was almost 2.6 times greater for blacks. And it was for whites, uh, theme. The issue we don’t would cover up waas. When we did the follow on about the racial disparity panel that the Air Force said that they established and Miss Farrell, could you respond to that? And are there some differences or various again that you didn’t feel that you were able to get the information and, um really had some sort of lack of confidence. Maybe in some of that data, Sure, I’ll be happy to expand upon our methodology. Our methodology was for a different time period. Thin dons is listen much longer. Ours focused on the physical year 2013 2017 which was the latest available data. We experienced very good cooperation from the Department of Defense. This was a very rigorous analysis is I noted we obtained the records all the records for that period between fiscal year 2013 and 2017 in three, dead in three categories of 15 databases across services. There were some places where data was incomplete, and that’s the reason we say that it’s We found disparities that were statistically significant at certain stages of the military jury justice process. But at other stages of the findings were inconclusive and it’s usually inconclusive for two reasons. One incomplete data. Not that any of the service did not provide the data, but the data was incomplete, such as nonjudicial Punishments of the data was incomplete for the army and the maybe as well as the Coast Guard, so it was very inconclusive. But way were seeing very good cooperation from duty analysis that Joo did, uh, in Kabul. Knowing all this information together takes time, it’s not something that deal be could do routinely in an efficient manner. That’s why it’s so important for them to carry out the recommendation to adapt their personnel and their investigative databases to have the same uniform standards as the military justice. So that going forward, especially if the causes of disparities are identified and steps were taken to remedy those you want to be sure you have put that in place. I don’t think you will find that promise. Yeah, okay, thank you. And I hope that in our next discussion will get into those causes. Uh, certainly. But girl Christians in going back to you very, very quickly I know you gente on and really in your analysis, felt it was important to look it legally trained military prosecutors. But I guess within the judicial system, we would probably I’ll agree that there’s always there’s, there is some bias there. How do you How do you think that’s different in the military? How could it be different if I’m understand your question? Um, well, I think rather than leaning, leading on the commander’s, the military legally trade military prosecutors. Is that a different kind of bias that they would bring to their positions? Well, I think that there’s also always some implicit bias within new Jessel system. Of course, as well as a swell is in the military as well as in society. But you see that Mr Pernetti and why? But there that recommendation be there. Well, as I agree, ranking member Kelly there’s always buys no matter what system we have, and that’s unfortunate. The reason we talk about that is the bias that the command decision who had the commander has the power to make that decision is he knows the accused. He also knows the person he chose not to prosecute or not to give an article 15 to. Whereas, as a prosecutor, I never knew anybody until I walked in the court. S o. I could not have a bias against them one way or the other, and so that’s where I think the key is there’s an inherent bias in the chain of command when they know the people involved. If they haven’t established the same kind of relationships with African Americans that work with for them, as they have with the white service members of work for them, I think it’s gonna have a negative impact. And you feel that the prosecutors wouldn’t bring that kind of bias, At least in maybe. What are other other biases that they actually, um, Miss Davis, you’ve gone over a minute. 51 So great. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Better here. All right. Next we have this Escobar, you’re recognized for five minutes. Thank you so much, Madam Chairwoman. And many, thanks to our Panelists. You know, Kirk Kristiansen. It’s really interesting that you mentioned the Coast Guard because I just recently read a report about the Coast Guard, which obviously is under the Department of Homeland Security. Not uh d o d. But the, um, report by the inspector general found that incidents of, um, racial harassment were not. There were no consequences for cadets who used racial slurs against their fellow cadets. Absolutely no consequences. And there was a history of this. And so I think one of the things that we’re going to need to do is really kind of take a look at, um, at really a broad sense of cut cause ality, including whether folks were punished for using racial slurs, etcetera. But to both of you. And I know we’re gonna get into this morning the next panel. But well, as we’re talking about the positive factors, what would you say? Just based on the research that you have done, what are the positive factors in these disparities in the research that you have found? Well, and that’s the excellent question and, you know, goes beyond my expertise is. And what the data that we have is the data shows This is a problem on. And that’s what we were hoping that the military service would do once the problem was brought publicly to lie to them, that they would look for the causes and we were limited in what access we have on that. But just as someone who served for 23 years and it served all that in military justice world, I do think that theme the racial makeup, especially of the Air Force leadership without a doubt, has some impact on the disparities that we have. General heightened. When he testified at his nomination hearing to become device chair felt here, uh, when he became the vice chair on, said that basically, the issue of race was behind the military, that he when he looked at the service, it was color blind. Azi did it, you know, And that’s the problem. You know, there’s 24 star African American generals and entire D. O. D s. So we really need to focus on on the inclusion of all races and their voices and understanding issues that the young Black Service members are facing. Thank you so much, Miss Farrell. Your thoughts and anything come to mind as you were conducting your research. One of our objectives was to determine what steps todo taken to determine causes and disparities. And what we found was there’s been some steps, but not a comprehensive review by steps. There’s climate surveys that gained information on perspectives of service members. But going back to the seventies eighties and nineties, there really hasn’t been focused on the military justice system and causes for experience. We again think that our report pointing to certain stages of the military, cross says, can help carry cause where to start looking. For those causes on. That is a recommendation duties agree with, but also in the National Defense Authorization Act for 2020. There is a provision consistent with that at that by, uh, blames this month. View he will proceed with such a study. Commence it. Thank you. Thank you both. I’m quickly running out of time. I just wanted Teoh make note for something about something with my my colleagues and with the chairwoman. You know, we’ve We’ve been talking about this issue, um, for the last year and 1/2 and it really is important in terms off, not just African American service members, but Latinos. Um, and also, I’m very curious about the impact on immigrants in our services, especially when we have a commander in chief on disparate treatment as well. But one of the things that we have found is at the highest levels of authority within the military. It’s just it’s even less diverse on git. Maybe because of the adverse military judicial system encounters that you all have pointed out that maybe one of the underlying causes I know just about out of time. Thank you both again for your work, and I yield back. Thank you, Miss Escobar. Um, this Loria, you are now recognized for five minutes. Um, thank you. And I want to thank Sir Christian sent atmosphere for joining us today. And I think that this really highlights something, you know, the saying is that justice is blind, but it’s showing that justice is not color blind on having served myself in the military, having been a commanding officer and part of the N J P nonjudicial punishment process within the command. I think that, you know, understanding that in the lack of data that has been collected in the lack of affording requirements that existed, I think that that’s very useful for us to Here is a committee to understand the scope of this problem and get after, you know, true core issues of why a disparity could exist. Miss Farrell just mentioned in her comments a couple of minutes ago the fact that there’s command climate data as a command climate survey data as well. That I think can be an informative on. This, you know, is part of the bigger picture because we don’t necessarily have accurate data for nonjudicial punishment in all parts of the judicial, the military justice system to go off. But even Mistral, can you elaborate on how command climate data could help inform. You know what the previous questions about from this Escobar vision, a way that we could try to incorporate that or require the incorporation of that into the analysis because that’s taken regularly. It’s taken from all commands, and it’s taken from the perspective of people who are not only involved themselves personally in anak ization who are going through the nonjudicial punishment process. So can you elaborate everyone on how that could maybe be a piece of the data that we need to fully analyse? Sure. Be happy to a lot of arrayed, uh, command climate surveys are required. Ah, blink duty has gotten much better in the past few years and making sure that they be administered thanks to a little help from Congress. They’re designed to help an incoming commander understand the working environment and what issues he or she may need to focus on while they have a command. There’s usually a standard set of questions that are answered and in the incoming commander can ask some additional questions. Climate surveys have been very beneficial to paying perceptions of service members and many personnel areas of work of film looking at hazing, a swell as other sexual assault issues. So I think the surveys could be reviewed in order to see if there’s something that could be gain. We do have to be careful about survey fatigue. We hear that from duty all the time, but this comes down to where is this issue of racial and ethnic disparities indeed, of these priorities? So command climate surveys could have, Ah, some issues incorporated. The status of forces is another survey of the active duty. There’s also another one for the reserve component, the civilians. But that’s another one that there’s standard questions that often the questions change. But when an issues emerging often do the uses the status of forces survey to ask a set of questions over a period of a few years to try to dig a little deeper to see what’s going on. So there’s there are survey instruments already in use that could be used to perhaps obtain some or information about this particular issue in the military justice system. Well, thank you for that. And you know, I think that, you know, as we look at, um, you know how to try to collect that and to assess the situation, to identify the root causes that we could consider that there is additional data on top of just statistical data about the types of JP that happened on. Do you think it could also be somewhat difficult? I think we have to be very clear on how we collect that data because you know different things. Stop it. Different phases Within the N. J P process. Some of them may never reach Captain’s mast, for example, or office hours or whatever turned the service uses for that process on DSO may stop short of that with just assigning extra military instruction and other things. And I think that there is also an aspect of the N J P process with the A check to maintain good order and discipline. Attempt to use the process when there is a supposed infraction to improve the performance of the sailor of the soldier, with things such as extra military instruction and things like that which are clearly required to address specifically the issue at hand. Um and are not viewed as punishment that are viewed, as you know, wasting and improve their performance on make them better soldiers or sailors. So I think, you know, definitely collecting data is very important. But I appreciate your work and researching this, and I think that we do need to do more to understand the problem or to get at the root causes. And training is also an issue as well. I think that as a commanding officer, you know, and maybe what was specifically the maybe legal justice course, and then there’s not really any specific thing that I recall in that training that addressed specifically looking at racial disparities or uniform application of the justice system. So I apologize ever and over, madam Chair. But thank you again. I look forward to the next of Pamela’s. Thank you, Miss Loria. Now, Miss Helen, you’re recognized for five minutes, except you’re not there. Um, we’ll come back to you, Mr Cisneros. You’re recognized for five minutes. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. And I think our Panelists for being here today, Colonel questions in Look, I’m a product of the Navy’s What used to be the Navy’s apartment of action program. I went through this program called Brought an opportunity, roster selection and training. It took enlisted personnel of people of color. How preparing for college. So it was part of the Navy’s process to get more people color into the officer ranks. You know, As you stated Carell, that’s me. Percent of our military officers, or white 8% are African American. It’s even lower for Asians and Hispanics. You know, when you talk about the impact of the lack of representation in the officer ranks and how it has disparities in our military justice system. Um, and you also mentioned about, you know, the lack of in when you were in the Air Force the lack of diversity in the jack or there. But really, what do we need to do? Is faras recruiting goes to bring these numbers up? So in really well, recruiting Mawr divers officer corps really helps off this problem in the criminal justice system. In the military of the the disparities, I think, Congressman Well, I think, uh, you know, prioritizing. Definitely. As you talked about that opportunity to go from a young enlisted black service member to come. An officer How do we encourage that process? Uh, what are we doing to make sure that the officers have mentorship that they and that is so key. What? How far do you progress in the jack or any other part of the The service depends on who you have her mentors, And so do we have people looking out for those young black officers on making sure that they can progress? Are they getting the opportunities to go toe professional military education and residents, which is a key to getting promoted, especially to the general officer of Flag officer rank on and then making sure that that they are operating in a good environment. So story just broke. Believe this weekend about the racial problems at West Point and that the cadets there the African American gets, I believe 25% of them said that they have been subjected to racial abuse. And so we got to make sure that have the institutions that are giving us our future leaders, that the people serving and trying to get that commission are treated with respect. Miss Farrow, you know, in the 2019 Geo report recommended that the Army, navy and Coast Guard collect data such as, you know, race, ethnicity, gender offensive punishment for all nonjudicial punishments. Can you elaborate on the importance of collecting this data and update the committee on the services progress in this area. Yes. Oh, this is an area where the data was inconclusive because those three services had incomplete data to determine the extent of disparities and the nonjudicial punishments. What happened was in conducting our data reliability check. We did identify of the number of non judicial cases in the Court of Appeals for the Armed Services and reports from the school year 2013 to 2017 and compared those numbers with the numbers in the services military, justice databases as well as their personal down bases. And we found that for the Army, roughly 65% of the reported cases were not in there are databases, and those reported cases air in the report, by the way, that goes to Congress and the Secretary of Sense. About 8% of the cases that were reported in the end reports were not in the name X database, and about 82% of the cases but the Coast Guard were reported out, but not in their databases. So we made a recommendation that thes three services have complete information on non judiciary punishments after discussions with them. There were some concerns about how they would do that. So the recommendation is actually to determine the feasibility, including the benefits and the drawbacks of having complete non judiciary punishment data. We know that the Army and the Navy have moved forward and decided that they want to have this information. And perhaps you could learn more about that on the next panel. The Coast Guard plans to make a decision about the feasibility and collecting such data in September of this year. All right. Thank you. Are you back? You won’t be. Thank you, Mr Cisneros. Miss Holland. Followed by Miss Trey Han. And finally, Mr Brown. Miss Holland, your recognise for five minutes. Thank you. Chair Woman to woman. I don’t have any questions at this time for this panel, but I will be here for the next panel. Thank you. I yield back to you. All right. Thank you. Mr a hen. You’re recognized for five minutes. Uh, thank you, madam Chair. Uh, I, um so I’ll just put my bias out there. I don’t generally believe that it takes years to change. I do believe that it happens closer to an instant, especially when we have a strong culture and strong leadership, which is something I believe we pride ourselves in. Uh, so that being said, I’ll just ask the question. Um uh, toe Colonel Christian said, And Miss Farrell, do you believe convening authority should be left to commanders of you think that the current process increases the risk of unconscious or even overt bias within our military justices system? And I’ll just add my second question would be Do you believe that if the convening authority were transferred to a separatist city within the department, it could decrease the racial disparity highlighted in these reports? Thank you for your question. While that is a core principle of mine is that the military go become part of the 21st century and have prosecutors make prosecution decisions versus convenient authorities. Uh uh, I think the command controlled system of military justice, as I talked about before they know the people involved, it’s going to cause a bias. No matter how good the Commander is, no matter how desires they are not having a bias, they’re gonna have a bias because they know the people were making, uh uh that have been alleged committed a crime. I think that bias is going to carry over throughout the process because of the way the chain of command works. If you have a convenient authorities system, they wouldn’t. You have a committing authority system. They weigh very heavily on the views of the commander who knows the people who have committed the crime, a prosecutor based system, which is not perfect. No system is, but a ZAY said before, when I prosecuted a case, first time I laid eyes on the accused is when I came to court, I didn’t know they were. Brace wasn’t an issue unless, for some reason, his identification issue as part of the report of investigation. And so I think it eliminate does not eliminate but reduces the chance that racial biases will impact the decision made by the person, citing whether case should go to trial or not. In her second question, what was your second question? The straight and thanks it was if I I think Colonel Persons answered it, but it was, If, um, if he believes that the convening authority would transfer to a separate entity within the department, it would decrease the racial disparity. Um, I last Miss Carroll if he has anything to add. Otherwise, I do have, um Maybe just another follow up. Go right ahead. Thank you. I would say to answer your question, we need to see DVDs evaluation off the causes of disparities at these different stages in order to ah, pinpoint exactly what needs to be done in terms of correction along the lines that you’re talking about that are the commanders today who are holding convening authority. Are they receiving training on these issues? Are Are we arming them with the tools to recognize racial disparities and ethnic inequity so that they may address them appropriately? Well, uh, that’s probably question better for the other panel to answer. My understanding is the Air Force has said they are now doing that. I don’t know about. As the jail report found in May of 2019 it doesn’t seem like anything had been done by that time to find causes or solutions. Okay. Thank you always for Channel two. I yield back. Thank you. Mr a hen. Mr. Brown, you’re recognized for five minutes. Thank you, Madam Chair. And thank you for allowing me to waive onto this panel. I’m going to have a longer statement to make before the second pounds. So I just jump into some questions for a Panelist for Colonel Christiansen and Miss Farrell. Thank you for being here. I guess this is the concern I have are looking at what we did in the end. Ea that ask g a o to study this issue on then in the nd a putting to the d o d to come back with a an assessment of what the cause is. All are on. Here’s the concern I have. So I need some help. Carnal Christians. And you said that you have you witnessed the case Where a black man with six a minutes late for formation, He was court martialed. You never saw that with a white service member when you talk about implicit racial bias, Typically, in that case, if you would have brought to that Commander Halo, you just sent the court martial black guy. And in the last month, we’ve had re white guys six minutes, seven minutes, 10 minutes late. You didn’t do it often with implicit bias. That commander might say Ah, wow. You’re right. let me take a look. It’s often benign. It’s unknown when brought to the attention of the of the offender, if you will, they’re willing to make corrective action from everything. Mr Christian. That’s in that you said about your efforts to get information from d o D their unwillingness toe Explore the causes of this disparate racial impact. The military. Justin I’m concerned that in the G A o study were put into the d o d too much responsibility to come up with guidelines for how to address disparities, discover or research the causes of disparity and develop a uniform set of of demographic criteria or classifications so we can better understand it. Here’s my question. What can Congress do today to ensure that D. O. D is doing these things in the jail report that gets beyond the resistance that you and your organization current question should have seen What? What? Some what? Some specific things that we should be doing. Well, great. Excuse me. Great start is what we’re doing right now. Uh, it’s definitely putting the d o d. I noticed that this is something Congress is concerned about, but I think Congress needs to send a message to the various services that they do not expect that this is going to be pay quick solution. So, for example, my understanding is the Air Force I G wants to have the investigation wrapped a pied into July. That’s ridiculous. You know, this is a decades long problem. You’re not going to find problems and solutions and causes in two months. The second thing is that Congress needs to make clear to the D. O. D that they expect him to be reaching the outside entities to help with the solution. True experts on disparity true experts on what causes racial buys true experts on finding racial discrimination. And then Aziz has been required in the most recent nd a that they continue report back to Congress with the same vigor that they do with sexual assault report that is released each year. That has to have the same kind of detail, the same kind of depth to it, thankful this is Miss Farrell. Well, a pick up where the superstars left off in terms of external reporting. That’s that’s one of the recommendations that we have seen progress on in terms of D o d Will is expected to include because of the 2020 National Defense Authorization Act duties expected to include demographic information in its annual reports going forward. So that’s going to help with the transparency, but it’s still quite a ways off. I think congressional oversight, periodic congressional oversight is gonna be necessary. I agree that doing an evaluation of the causes, it’s not something that could be done in just a few months having a prioritizing where DV is going to look at which stages in order to get behind and also bring in consultants gonna be very important. You know, the Indy A Re Cars duty to commence the study for evaluating causes this month, there’s no in day again. It’s gonna be very important, I think, for the House Armed Services Committee, specifically this subcommittee and others to have you debrief or have have another hearing to understand what progress they’re making toward that final report on the causes. Thank you. You back, man Chair, Thank you once again for allowing me to wave on at Special and General Court, martials remain about the same for black and white service members. Yet significantly more of Black service members are brought to court martial that appears to show two things. One that court martials are not convicting because of race but evidence. And to that, commanders are preferring charges on more Black service members for reasons other than the strong weight of evidence against them. I guess. Finally, let me just ask you, Is that a fair statement? I do think that’s a fair statement. Uh, I I honestly believe our court members tried to do the right thing and that I don’t believe I ever saw a single panel where I thought that they were racially driven in the verdict. I do worry again that the decision, really what we’re talking about is that the White Service member gets the benefit of the doubt. Their case doesn’t go for their cases handled at a different level than what the Black service members are. Thank you, Miss Farrell. I did not hear all of that question, but I think you were asking questions related to what Joo identified at the beginning of the military justice process of what we see at the end, and it’s quite a different picture as we’ve discussed, actions are more likely to be identified at the very beginning of the judicial process when a service member is under investigation. Five. When we look at outcomes in terms of convictions and punishments for convictions, we found that there was no statistically significant difference among races in terms of conviction and similar results for punishments. No statistically significant difference, except for black service members in the Navy or less likely to be dismissed or discharged after a conviction so that there’s the they’re at opposite ends of what we see in terms of disparities in the beginning of the system and where we see them end up at the end. All right again, thank you both very much for your testimony. Will take a short recess so we can bring our second panel to the table and I’m here from them. Coming. We’re going to go normally. Go left, right, right. Left because start small. Welcome back, everyone. We will bring this hearing to order once again, and it’s my pleasure. Now to introduce our next panel. We will start with Lieutenant General Charles PD, Judge advocate General for United States Army, followed by Vice Admiral John Han, IQ Judge advocate General of the U. S. Navy. Lieutenant Jeffrey, Lieutenant General Jeffrey Rockwell, Judge Advocate General for United States Air Force. And finally, Major General Daniel Lecce, the’s staff judge advocate to the commandant of the Marine Corps, General OPD. We will begin with you ranking member Kelly and members of the committee. Thank you for this opportunity. I’m sorry, General. Could you move that microphone a little closer to you are Absolutely. How is that better? Thank you. I’m Chairwoman Spear ranking Member Kelly and members of the committee. Thank you for this opportunity. We meet on a topic of vital importance to our army and to our nation. Ensuring that every soldier who swears to defend our Constitution is guaranteed its foundational promise equal, equal justice under the law. This has been my charter across 32 years of service. And it is the commitment of the Army Judge, Advocate, General’s Corps and the Army leadership. As recent events make clear, that promise remains unfilled for too many in our nation. Just two days ago, we in our army celebrated its 245th birthday because of the service and sacrifice of many. I believe that today our army represents our country’s best ideals more than ever. Yet I also believe that, like the country we serve, there is still much more that must be done. Are hearing today reminds us of the origins of our uniform code of military justice. It was born out of a concern for fundamental fairness for those suspected of a crime. Our codes due process guarantees, zealous defense, impartial judges and robust appellate review Our it’s cornerstones over the years, and thanks to the work of many on this committee, the code has been reformed and improved, while its central purposes have been preserved, promoting justice while ensuring discipline. These are the pillars upon which our combat effectiveness rests, and they’re the reasons why our army is the best in the world. But as good as our justice system is, we can never take for granted its health or its fairness. It requires constant care by well trained law enforcement, educated commanders and qualified attorneys. Working together with the Congress, we have brought our justice system much closer to the full realization of equal justice. For all that close is never good enough. In May 2019 the G A o found racial disparities in our justice system. While it reached no conclusion on the causes of these disparities, this report raises difficult questions, questions that demand answers. Sitting here today, we do not have those answers. So our task is to ask the right questions and find the answers. I’m joined by my partner in this effort, Major General, the Army’s provost, Marshal General, my partner in this effort, Major General Kevin Marine General Marine supervisors are military police, our criminal investigators in our criminal laboratory based on the G. A. O s findings. The effort to examine our system is a shared responsibility with us and with our commanders. As we assess this issue, from investigations to command decisions to the disposition phase, we must do so with a common framework in the right stakeholders. That effort must start with seeing ourselves. This began last year’s we began implementing the G. A. O s recommendations. We’re also working with the other services to execute section 5 40 i of the N d. A. That now visionary statute directs us to identify, investigate and resolve potential disparities in justice. Finally, we continue to improve our internal data sharing. Recently, General Verena and I established a link between his law enforcement database and our justice database, allowing a degree of interoperability and transparency that never existed before these efforts began. Before the recent tragic events in the national conversation that followed our nation or followed across our nation and within our formations. As that conversation demonstrates, data alone cannot tell the full story. We must look beyond the data and ask the difficult questions. General Marine and I, along with Army leaders, need to look hard it ourselves with commanders. We must look at the causes, and we must understand how preconceptions and prejudice can affect both the investigation in disposition of misconduct. What makes your experience tells me we have an extraordinarily healthy system of justice. I also recognize we simply do not know what we do not know, and it is our job to discover what needs fixing and to fix it. To do this, I’ve directed a comprehensive assessment with the provost, Marshall General, to get left of the allegation left of the disposition decision to examine why the justice system is more likely to investigate certain soldiers in what our investigations in command decisions tell us about this issue. Finally, we know that each of us is shaped by our own backgrounds and experiences as the secretary, our chief and our Sergeant Major recently reminded us in which I echoed in my own message to my core. Leaders of all ranks must listen with compassion and humility. I believe our justice system is one of the best in the world, but I also know it is not perfect. A justice system must be both just four and seem to be just by all. We have much to learn and more work to do. General Verena and I, along with the Army leadership, look forward to working with this committee to understand the problem and to address it. Thank you. Thank you, General PD Admiral Hammock Heroines Beer ranking member Kelly Thank you for the invitation to testify on the issue of racial disparity of military Justice Department. Navy guidance emphasizes several things about equal opportunity. The first is that sailors and Marines are our most precious resource. Second, that unlawful discrimination undermines unit’s ability to function effectively and cannot be tolerated. And third, that we must overcome any bias or any stereotype that diminishes cohesiveness. Camaraderie for morale. In a recent message to the fleet. Emerald Gil Day, the chief of naval operations, commented on this, he said, In the Navy, we talk a lot about treating people with dignity and respect. In fact, we demand it. It’s one of the things that makes us a great navy and then observing recent events in our nation, Emerald Guilty added. We can’t be under any illusions about the fact that racism is alive and well in our country, and I can’t be under any illusions that we don’t have it in or Navy. We cannot have those illusions. And so the Navy emphatically and unequivocally denounces racism. It is anti technical toe, our core values of honor, courage and commitment. It is antithetical to our obligation of service members to support and defend the Constitution and to help protect the rights afforded to all Americans. The military justice system must operate without discrimination. Without racism, all sailors must to be able to have confidence in the fairness of the system. The May 2019 Geo report identified some disparities related to race and ethnicity to summarize those that were identified for the navy black sailors, more likely than whites sailors to be the subject of an investigation in the database used by the Naval Criminal Investigative Service and other Navy law enforcement elements, the same for Hispanic service members. Black sailors were also more likely than whites sailors to be tried by a general or special court martial. So we’re Hispanic sailors. When it came to assessing the results of court martial, there was no significant difference between the conviction rates for black, Hispanic or white sailor’s. And as the GL witness noted on the last panel for those found guilty, black sailors were less likely than whites. Sailors to receive the punishment, have discharge or dismissal. The jail was correct that there may be disparities at different points in the system, and and we appreciate the recommendations. They made toe help when those air combined with the requirements of Section 5 40 i of the F y 20 nd a. My hope is that will result in improved data collection a process to determine when that data should be reviewed and an evaluation to identify the causes of the disparities they’re regarding data collection. The Navy and Marine Corps case management system has been updated to collect the race, ethnicity and gender of victims and accused for each general and special court martial. I have more work to do in two areas. The first relates to summary courts martial because the Navy prosecution office is also often or not involved directly in the summary courts martial, and we are reviewing procedures needed to collect the associated data. And as the J. A witness observed, the second relates to nonjudicial punishment. They recommended the Navy consider how we might maintain nonjudicial punishment information in a database and how to implement this recommendation remains under review. The Navy is also taking steps to prevent racial bias through training. This is not a panacea, but we can’t let up. The Naval Leadership in Ethics Center provides training on unconscious bias for prospective commanding officers, executive officers and other leaders. The Naval Criminal Investigative Service trains agents on diversity and inclusion on unconscious bias and cross cultural communications to prevent racial profiling in investigations. We also provided training on unconscious bias and inclusion and diversity within the Judge. Africa Journalist Core Community. The Navy is committed to ensuring the military justice system is fair for everyone. Now look forward to working with you to improve our data collection and to identify, understand and address these disparities. Thank you. Thank you, Admiral. Panic. General Rockwell. Madam Chair Spirit. Thank. Remember, Kelly. Distinguished members. Thank you so much for the opportunity to address the importance of eradicating racial disparity in our military justice system to ensure fairness, inclusion and diversity for all air and space professionals in the department Air Force, an inclusive and diverse force is absolutely necessary to defend a diverse and inclusive nation. Like many of our civilian counterparts, we collect data on race in the military justice process. Our data shows that black male airman below the rank of e five and with less than five years, time and service are almost two times more likely to receive nonjudicial punishment on Article 15 or face courts martial. While we review specific cases to ensure there is not the spirit treatment based on protected class, we don’t have clear answers or underlying reasons as to why the disparity exists. Like all difficult issues that nation faces solutions to address that disparity will require a whole of government and societal approaches. We are committed to working with you to be part of that solution throughout our history. We have defended the nation, fought and won our wars because of four simple yet key components. First, the best people second, the best training. Third, the best equipment and forth The most important element that binds us together. Discipline, discipline lies at the heart of with the nation expects of its military in the execution of our national defense missions. Discipline must be developed from Day one. Discipline must also be earned by the military establishment by treating all of our members with dignity and respect with equal opportunity to meet and exceed standards. We try to do that through inclusion, feedback, mentoring, along with the administration of progressive discipline. When airman make mistakes before they become a disciplinary statistic. As our secretary and chiefs recently stated, our diversity strengthens us as much as our common mission unifies us, the department Air Force strives to false foster a culture of inclusion and respect where every airman and space professional is valued for the talents he or she brings to the department, regardless of race, color or creed, our struggle against racism and other forms of discrimination cannot be viewed as finite battles. Rather, our approach must be infinite a constant struggle for betterment. When President Truman signed Executive Order 9981 in 1948 he set in motion racial integration of our armed forces. 25 years later, in 1972 Task Force found intentional and systemic discrimination in the military justice system. Many of the proposals identified then were adopted today. While we believe that we no longer have intentional discrimination in our processes, the fact is that racial disparity in the aggregate persists. This demonstrates the complex and challenging nature of the issue, symptomatic or indicative of one of many symptoms. A daunting problem, but one that should not stop us from exploring what we can do in the disciplinary process to service part of the solution set addressing it requires a holistic approach Every day across the continuum of discipline, we are committed to finding new solutions and approaches every air and space professional, military and civilian from the most senior to the most Junior is responsible for fostering and reinforcing a culture of inclusion, dignity and respect. Like everything we do in the military. This requires a team effort, especially to get to the root causes of this difficult problem we can frame an approach by asking ourselves four juxtaposing questions First, While easy to say, our data merely reflects or is perhaps better than the society from where we come, what can we do in the armed services? Second, while easy to say, the specific cases show no actual disparate treatment in the decision made, are we really including mentoring and administering progressive discipline equally toe all before they become an Article 15 or a court martial? Third, while easy to say, justice was color blind in each of the cases are there administrative and substantive due processes which are discriminatory in treatment or impact. And fourth, finally, while easy to say, the data shows that the aggregate disparity disappears after the 1st 5 years in the force. What can we do to eradicate that disparity earlier and all together, we look forward to working with the subcommittee on this very on this most important issue. Thank you. General Rockwell General Election, Madam Chair Spare ranking member Kali, Members of the Military Personnel Sub Committee Thank you for the invitation to represent the Marine Corps on the issue of racial disparity within the military justice system. Marine Corps is dedicated to ensuring equality throughout its ranks from the most junior Marine. Through our senior leadership, although we have come a long way, we recognize that much must must must be done. Several months ago, the commandant sought a way forward to remove the public display of the Confederate battle flag from Marine Corps installations because of its divisiveness in association with hate and discrimination. Three weeks ago, the Marine Corps issued a specific direction to the fleet to remove the Confederate battle flag from all Marine Corps installations across the globe. In his message to the Marine Corps regarding the Confederate battle flags removal comment, I stated Quote only as a unified force free of discrimination, racial inequality and prejudice come before demonstrate our core values and serve as the elite warfighting organization America requires and expects us to be. To that end, the commandant is committed to implementing the fighting’s of the G A O before disparities. The Geo highlighted in our administration of the justice system and the Marine Corps require immediate scrutiny and demand action. The implicit trust Marines place in one either makes Yellen elimination of racial inequality and imperative as the common not stated any form of racial inequality, whether it be direct, indirect, intentional or unintentional threatens the cohesion of Marine Corps and must be addressed head on. The Geo published two recommendations specifically addressed to the apartment that Navy First. They recommended the highlight the need for our personnel investigation in military justice databases to use standardized data related to race, ethnicity and gender. Second and similarly focused on standardized data collection for nonjudicial punishments in summary courts martial. My written statement provides in greater detail the Marine Corps specific actions Intentions stemming from the G. A. O s recommendations improved at a collection brought about by changes within last year will help us to collectively in comparatively assess data to identify racial and ethnic disparities. But we will not wait for better data to address and fight inequality. Now, how we train, educate and foster Marines within our core is paramount to ensuring the equality across are fighting force and within the military justice system. Training and education serve as the fundamental components of eliminating racial buys. To this end, the Marine Corps pursuing inclusion of unconscious bias training curriculum at every level, professional development perspective commanders and senior enlisted leaders received training on bias awareness to the Marine Corps University. Junior Marines received comparable training from small unit leadership. Even our military justice have undergone similar training on unconscious bodies within the past year. Such training and decisive senior leader action such as the Confederate Battle flags removal, may not resolve the disparities overnight, but our commitment and determination to ensuring equality among the range marine steadfast and enduring. Thank you. And I look forward to working with you on this important issue. Thank you, General Lecce. Thank you all for your testimony. I’d like to start by asking a simple question on transparency We work for the public and the fact that General Rockwell you fought the foyer requests from protect our defenders for over three years is deeply troubling to me. Especially when it was said by the judge that this Waas, um on the the aftermath of the Air Force manpower found that racial disparities are consistent, persistent and getting worse. And the judge then said when they attempted to get information about what you were doing about that and you refuse the judge that this was an exercise which went nowhere. So tell me, and the American people. What was what was, um who has benefited by not being forthright in complying with the FOIA request? Madam Chair Aziz, you know, with for you. And you know the exemptions under FOIA. And you know, in this case which for your exemption was was invoked here it was the deliberative process. Pre decisional. Yeah, but that’s always used when people don’t want to comply with for you and when. Yes, man. And when we looked at the underlying root causes, of course the data was was released and the data showed exactly what you explained. The underlying reason. The root causes of the 11 or 12 people on the working group there were 11 or 12 different answers as to what that root cause waas and that truly man did fall into why we protect that. Except you didn’t do anything about it. That’s the problem. You you stand up this Air Force manpower to do this evaluation, they come back with a pretty compelling statement, consistent, persistent and getting worse. And then you do nothing about it. How is that deliberative? Well, the it was it is consistent and has been since we’ve been collecting the data since 72. It is persistent because it is consistent. A sfar. Is it getting worse? It has pretty much stayed the same, at least in the Air Force across across this time. But one thing that we do know in the air forces to create this this zone of innovation, this this creative problem solving these creative solutions, you have to give people man the ability to to really just look at this issue in different ways. But I agree with you. I’m gonna move on. Thank you. Um, Admiral Han IQ. The request for forya. The request was from, I think 2006 to 2015. You provided only information and data from 2014 and 15. Why did you not provide the entire request, Madam Chair, I’ll have to take that question. For the record, I know that we switched case management systems in about 2014 and I think it likely was dealing with the data and the amount of good data that we could deliver. But I’ll get back to you with the final answer. All right. Protector defenders, when they came out with a report, found that the Air Force was 71% more likely to have black hair. Man face court martial than whites. Army was 61%. Navy was 40%. Marine Corps was 32%. Did any of you reach out to protect our defenders to find out more about their study or how they could be helpful to you in dealing with this problem? Shannon OPD, ma’am, I can’t say today that I know specifically what what communications we had with pod during that time. I can get that answer back to you, but I can’t say right now. Do you have any intention of working with them moving forward? Man, we’ve We’ve talked with pod. We’ve digested their materials. We’ve used it. Teoh, inform us. But I think we also spent a fair amount of time, extensive amount of time with Joo and its data requests as well. So we have a lot of people asking us for information. Eso we provide as best we can and certainly in accordance with the rules what we should provide to not only private organizations, but certainly thank you. I’m running out of time, Admiral. Panic. Did you reach out to pod toe? Learn more about their process or how they might be helpful. Man, I’m sure I did not, but I don’t know is if anybody from organization did. But I wish I had acted earlier. Thank you, General Rockwell. No, ma’am. Way are very much looking forward, though, to seeing with the field. Thinks about this. And this is what behind r I g independent review of this. We’re able to talk to the very same people in the field that the pot has been talking to, uh, with a multi disciplinary team to get this type of feedback off. What exactly is going on? And what are those root causes? General etc. Madam Share. I did not. And I think that’s an area where we can do better moving work on that. Do any of you think that someone should be court martial for being six minutes late to a formation meeting? Tell me, general Achy, I’m sure. I mean, it would depend on the circumstances. I mean, if it was in combat. Absolutely. I think if it was late for a meeting here in the Pentagon or and and this this chamber, the answer would be no, ma’am. Right? My time. has expired. Ranking member Kelly. I think we have to be real dying gris about using partial facts and partial figures. Six minutes lights, Not a big deal unless it is six minutes late. Delivering ordinance that saves thousands of troops six minutes late is not a big deal if it is to a meeting with Ah, subordinate. But it’s extremely important if your meeting with the president, United States of the Secretary of Defense ah, six minutes late, if it is one time is not a big deal. Six minutes light. If it’s a pattern. So not knowing all the circumstances, whether it was 16 minute thing or the other, I think we’re very dangerous. I think Carl Christiansen was very dangerous in saying that lawyers are less culturally byes, then commanders. That is a very dangerous assumption when he also said Onley one Antonini in Jags are African American. So where lesser represented in the Jag Corps but therefore were culturally superior to the rest of these commanders. I think that’s a very dangerous assumption to make. I think we have to be real care. Here’s what we know. We know e fives. People with five years and below are treated differently. If they’re African American, when they’re in the armed services, we know that. So we know what we got to get after we know that it seems the referral rates when they’re tried to the conclusion or the same. So that doesn’t necessarily mean that people are being referred. That shouldn’t. It may actually mean the opposite, but we don’t know. So what we’ve got to do is number one, figure out. How do we quit being discriminatory, racially discriminatory, to eat fives and below in people with five years of service? What do we need to do to remedy that situation? Number two is We know we don’t have African American fighter pilots. We know that the promotion right sometimes are slower to general officer or don’t make general officer with African Americans or minorities. We know some of the reasons, and so we got to get after him. Anthony Brown has the elite at which he’s talking about because let me tell you what if you’re not a fighter pilot, you’re probably not gonna make General if you’re not a submarine or a surface ship guy or an aviator, you’re not gonna make admiral. You might. There may be some JAG corps, some signal some logistics officer do. If you’re in the army, if you’re not a tanker infantry or combat arms guy, you’re probably not as likely to make. General, we know these. And so what are we doing to get African American kids into those branches where we know promotions happen? Will you get the best schools because of the jobs that you do? What do we do to encourage them? What are we doing as the services to go after and make sure we got aviators who fly in the Navy who come off the decks of those cues? What are we doing to make sure that we got African American pilots who wanna be F 35 pilots, which is more likely a quicker track to being promoted to general? Anything else? What are we doing to make sure that African American soldiers at the E one through 85 level are getting in the right? Imo s is the right branches where promotions exist. That’s what we got today. And I don’t mean to preach, but we got to get at the root of this stuff. We gotta quit talking about some of these things that maybe or might day what we got to do. If you want to stamp out the problem, you got to figure out what the problem is. You got to figure out what the root causes, and I think right now we’re failing horribly at that. So with that being said, I want to drive with Timmy. What are you doing in your service to figure out what the cause is, therefore, that we can make a change in a difference? Congressman Kelly, Thank you, I think from ah, recruiting and promotion perspective, I think there’s an intense focus right now. And there has been our chief of staff secretary instituted an information age talent management system last year, and that, in part is designed to get after natural talent and talent that that implicit bias might prevent from advancing. And so I think there’s a fair. There’s not just a fair amount of emphasis there. Significant emphasis. I ous I mentioned in my statement I have directed with General Marine Ah look very deliberate assessment of trying to get left of the allegation, and what that means is if we have overrepresentation coming into the investigative system. How do we get in front of that allegation to figure out what’s happening when the soldier gets to the unit such that they they get in with, Let’s say, the wrong crowd or they start using drugs or they start misbehaving. What is going on there? Or perhaps what? Just to the left of the disposition decision to send someone to trial? Is there something going on there? So we’re looking hard. It implicit bias. I take some some comfort in this. When we started looking at implicit bias in the arena of sexual assault about 10 years ago, it is now replete through our training. Not only commanders but judge advocates throughout, and it, in my assessment professional assessment has had a significant impact on the understanding of counterintuitive behaviour in sexual assaults. We know training education in implicit bias works. Can you guys really answer really quickly, just like 15 seconds on what you can do to change that? Because I’m out of time. Thank you Wreck. Remember Kelly First and foremost, I think we the jack or need to fit in with the Navy’s over 11 and a culture of excellence it really is about emphasizing signature waivers that giving your respect that you talked with. Second thing is, we have focused on diversity recruiting. We have a dedicated diversity liaison program 18 officers closely affiliated with 13 diversity and educational organizations to try to keep connections. So we keep that recruiting pipeline open and then, like General PD, talked about focusing on unconscious bias. The reason that I think it works is because I remember the first time I took unconscious bias training in 2014. He was only later when I realized I had an unconscious bias against unconscious bias training. I think it can be effective, and I think we need to keep at it and keep moving that through the force. All right, Very quickly, please. Ranking member Kelly. We do it exactly what you said it. You expand the discipline continuum from just courts an article 15 and you go left when you expand that zone. And you look at that how you discipline somebody how you counsel somebody, how you include somebody. How you give them feedback is the holistic approach. We have to take ranking member coming very quickly. This is has to be top down driven and the comet on has done that with his recent action. Everybody has to get it, and it starts from the top, and he’s driven that down. We also have done it with our pack order. Perpetrator of activities and conduct were that gets after discrimination that’s been on the books for three years and involves equal opportunity adviser to the Commander. It’s a commander’s program. Thank you. Um, this Davis, you’re recognized for five minutes. Thank you. Thank you, Madam. Chair and to all of you, we appreciate your joining us today. Some. You know, I’m glad that, like my colleague, Mr Kelly talked about, um, some of the issues that you’ve already identified and one of them it was about the five years, and I think that’s very important. What I’d like to know is about the early warning signs. Is there? Is there a nun Durst anding that that we really need to look at that and that some of that information should be collected as well? Are there counselling sessions? Are there concerns about retribution? How do we How do we begin to really understand that veteran? How is that used? The other thing that I think we’re all sq say that we’re all talking about right now, um, is the element of white privilege and I wonder to what extent is that, um, in an area of discussion that really can be broadened in the military as well? How How is that talked about? Because, as we well know, if you look at the data there, there plenty of ways of seeing and suggesting and and really being open about half about, um, how that affects us all, frankly, and I think we all have in our own experience, um, those examples and how it might have been different if our son or daughter was black or brown. What? What does that mean? I think that’s an important discussion toe having the services as well. And then finally, I just a No wonder you know how to how once we identify implicit bias, what do we do about it If we’re to go back into some and looking at the progression of circumstances for for someone and the outcomes What? What is it about that? How do we identify it? And then what would we do? I mean, really, how how talk about that a little bit as well. Thank you. You want to start general etc. Madam Congressman, you know, again, I believe that starts from the top. And I believe it starts with these honest and candid conversations in a safe environment, you could do this in the military. Um, we believe in the Marine Corps that this is commander driven and commander owned. But you have to begin with those. You have to view diversity within the force as a strength. And that begins, you know, with the common not all way down to the most junior. But you have to accept that as a strength because at the end of the day, that’s what the Marine Corps is about. It’s about fighting as a team. Everybody on the team, regardless of gender, ethnicity or race, is very important. And that’s that’s the bottom line. So, as my colleagues have stated here, you know, pathways and mentorship to young people. So look at the military to look at the Marine Corps as a path for them. We have work to do there, but we can do that. Uh, these were things and seven separate Now. Thank you, man. I um when I when I look at the numbers we have right now and I see those numbers and it makes you realize that the numbers are good data, at least from an Article 15 and ah, court standpoint, it’s not evidence. It’s not evidence to get to the root cause of the problem. So the last part of your question, how do we train on bias? You look at the way attorneys always look at things. You looked a weed out bias to get to the weight, relevance and credibility of actual evidence. I think one of the approaches we must take is to develop more data left of Article 15. We don’t have that data way. We kind of know that’s where the problem is. What we don’t know and what we can’t answer for sure is are we mentoring everybody the same? We all feel that we probably aren’t based on those biases. Um, but we don’t have the specific data to show that once you get that data, of course, you move on to the training, you move on to the speaking of bias, you move on to the training of that, you move onto weeding that out and that all that all creates an atmosphere of inclusion. You create that atmosphere of inclusion, you’ve just created diversity. Okay, Thank you. Um, Admiral Hannah, Miss Davis says about 15 seconds, but will extend 15 seconds to each of you to finish your comments. The only additional comment I would have is I think the value of unconscious bias training and other decision making training is that you you put yourself in the position where you can take different perspectives and you bring other people on your decision making team as well. And that’s very protective for the final decision maker and everybody on the team. Yes, ma’am. Thank you. I think you should know as well that the Army not only is focused in the squad level in the squad level of according to our sergeant major and our chief of staff and secretary, it’s all about the team building. And it’s all about inclusion. And it’s all about bringing people onto one team, so they all feel that they belong. And that gives you a better ability to diagnose where people are going left and right and center. And I think that focus by our Army leadership at every echelon all the way down is key to getting after this, especially when it comes to unconscious bias. All right, thank you. Here is Helen. You’re recognized for five minutes. Thank you, Chair. And thank you, Ranking member Kelly for holding this hearing and thank you Panelists for being here. This is a significant problem that we absolutely need to fix. We must ensure the systems we utilize to administer discipline are fair and just for everyone. In the 19 sixties, my father served in the Marine Corps and experienced firsthand the maturation of the service into a fully integrated force, along with the racial tensions that flared up during that time. We progress since then, but we can all agree we still have a long way to go. It was disheartening to learn that despite the data presented in the 2017 Protector Defenders Report and the 2019 Jail Report, the services have responded with little more than unconscious bias training to address widespread racial disparities. Meanwhile, Black Service members continue to receive nonjudicial punishment at disproportionately high rates, compared toa White Service members, and I have to believe that this is also a contributing factor toe. Why we don’t see service members of color achieve higher ranks, which is an issue this committee has consistently raised and which Weiqing member Kelly so eloquently articulated just a few minutes ago. Generally, what Rockwell the Air Force spent nearly three years worth of resource is time and energy, refuting the protector defenders report and preventing the data from being made available to the public. That time and those resource is, could have been spent accepting that there is a major problem in tackling it head on. It’s clear the racial disparities thinner military justice system requires more than just a disparity. Board that met for 90 days to result. Try to resolve it. So my quest. One of my questions. I have a few Will this include improving the well all of the work that you mentioned earlier about addressing these long term issues? Will this include improving the collection of data on race and ethnicity to make it more uniform across the services? So it’s easier to identify problems? Yes, ma’am, it will. We are making a conscious effort to again move that left of that Article 15 and court martial on the continuum and collect that a collect meaningful data of inclusion and feedback and mentoring. I think that’s critical to getting to the root cost off the issue. Here. Thank you. And what is the timeline for actions to be taken? If you could just reiterate that, General Rockwell. We’re doing it now, ma’am. And Ah, And right now, the projected timeline with the group that has been put together with our manpower and reserve affairs and personnel that were were a part off is ah, calendar year 20. Okay. Thank you so much. And last question. Well, maybe the last question, General, depending on my time, how will the progress be measured? I think ultimately you measure progress by eliminating that racial disparity. You get to where we are right now in the Air Force at the E five level. With five years in where there is no disparity, I think that has to be the ultimate goal of where we should get to thank you so much. And I have I have a little bit of time. So I will ask this next question. I understand the inspector general will be leading a review on racial disparities and causal factors. like culture and policies. The scope and demographic makeup of this review panel can certainly make a difference in its effectiveness and what its recommendations look like. Can you describe the makeup of the panel? I don’t have the full details. We have three members on that panel, but it is It is fundamentally large panel it has. It has general officers on it who are black and African American. It has chiefs on it, senior enlisted, who are African American. And it is It is multi disciplinary and multi diverse. The again, the idea is to get left off Article 15. And to get to that, there are so many different factors that need to be looked at. And I think what’s going to be key is reaching down into what people feel on the ground. Uh, and that’s really the focus of what they’re trying to get to. Thank you so much, Madam Chair, I yield. Thank you, Miss Holland. Mr. Cisneros, you’re recognized for five minutes. Thank you, Madam Chair and I thank you all for being here today. You know we have a problem in this country. What? Sentencing in the civilian. Well in the civilian law enforcement. There are criminal justice system of people of color. Tend to get a longer sentences that are there. Then what individuals do? Is this something we’re looking at in the military as well? We know we have a problem with the fives and below going to court martial or receiving and JP more often than White Service members do. But are we looking at the sentencing and really, are these individuals of colored being sentenced more harshly than their white counterparts? Sir, I’ll go first. Um, as we looked at this issue with regard to the G A O report. Ah, as a matter of fact, Black Airman are sentenced, um, less severely than white. I think that indicate and that’s both with article 15 punishments and court martial sentences. Um, I think all that tells us is this this issue is much more complex than we can really wrap. That was Yeah, correct me if I’m wrong, but that was form or senior members of the E five are above 85 right? I’m talking about more junior ranks. No, sorry. Even the one Teoh IV e five ranks where you see the racial disparity when you break it down further in the air force of White Airman are actually punished and sentenced more severely than Black Airman with a gentleman Yield. Yes, ma’am. Um, in the G a o report, it said that black and male service members were more likely than white and female service members to be tried and summary courts martial and to be subject of nonjudicial punishment in the Air Force in the Marine Corps. How does that square with what you said, General? Yes, ma’am, that that’s ah in venue selection Mawr. Go to that venue, that court martial. But at the end of it, when they are actually, if they are convicted and punished their sentences or less in the Air Force and and again I am I don’t know what that means. Uh, it’s It’s just as you as you pull apart the data and analyze it. That’s what we see in the Air Force. I don’t know if that’s the case in the other services. You know, if I could for the other services, if I could take those answers. For the record, I have another question regarding the collection of data in regards to in JP. Um for and Commanding Officers Assn. We’re doing the NGP as your collecting this data, um are we be collecting individual data for these commanding officers and looking at their records and trying to find these racial disparities and how they’re dishing out punishment? And if so, if we’re seeing starting to see these racial disparities in the punishment that they’re issuing, are they being council? That all? And anybody could take that question like they’re from everybody I could. Congressman, this is General PD from the Army. I think the short answer is if we if we looked at our data collection today, we do not track that they’re anything right now. My mike is activated. Can you hear me? Ok, OK, sir, this general PD from the army sitting here today, we do not track Ah, particular commanders dispositions by commander by race. And so I think in terms of our reflections on how we get after the notion of potential bias, whether unconscious or deliberate, that is part of I think, our assessment when General Verena and I talk about how law enforcement officer reacts to the scene of domestic violence or our commander disposes of nonjudicial punishment I think this is one of the areas that we look at. I would tell you, though in practice as a practicing judge advocate in the field for 32 years, those indicators are evident to any judge, advocate or other leader at Echelon. Whether it’s a brigade commander of division commander, they see things in their formation, especially particular commanders who are doing things that appear to them. Odd or suspicious or curious, I, myself and only one occasion in 32 years remembers a commander in such a circumstance as you, as you suggest it’s worth looking at. I think we have to. Andi, I think it’s responsible thing to do in our assessment. Thank you, sir. You know, with that madam Chairwoman, I yield back my time. But I would like tea here. Response on the record from the the other judge did judge after general. Thank you. All right, we’ll ask that you prepare, um, response for the record. Thank you, Mr Cisneros. Now, excuse me things, Trey. Hand is recognized for five minutes. Uh, thank you. Thank you, Madam. Chair. And in case it wasn’t clear before, um, I do want to say for the record that I’m grateful for the leadership of ah, Chairwoman Sphere and, um, and the mill purse subcommittee. Because back in 2012 when addressing sexual assault and and harassment, uh, reporting, I think it led to substantive changes in Indio DIY culture. But when it comes to a quality injustice, I mean, we are We are an impatient nations. So I’m going to ask the same question that I asked before in terms of convening authority. And if you believe convening authority should be left to commanders or do you think that the current process increases the risk of unconscious or even overt bias within our military justice system? Mystery. And can you, um, return to the video portion? We don’t see you. Oh, I’m sorry. I’m sorry. You me? Now way. See you that. Thank you, man. This is General PD from the Army. You’ve probably heard me say this before, but I have complete confidence in our commanders to administer justice fairly and and dispassionately, especially at the senior levels. I It’s not that I don’t have faith in lawyers. I love my core. I love the judge advocates. We recruit, train and educate and nurture and culture. But there’s no monopoly on VIAS or unbiased. There’s no monopoly on wisdom in the in your legal branches. I look to the federal in the state sector, and I’m not trying to throw anybody under the bus. But that’s a lawyer controlled system. And and by any measure, whether it’s the Sentencing project or DOJ Bureau of Statistics, the racial disparities in those systems are well in excess of what you find in the military services. I don’t that’s not by way of excuse, but that’s a lawyer controlled system. So I don’t believe the answer is lawyers. I believe the answer is a set of cross checks and balances between law enforcement commanders and lawyers looking at each other in the system and keeping each other honest. Thank you. Yeah, well, anyone else want to comment on that? Writing would have a different view. Okay, But I’m gonna go to my question, given that you’re I’m I’m sure, um, you’re all looking inward with a lot of urgency. One of the G A o findings was that while black and aesthetic males were more likely than whites, servicemen and women to be tried in general and special courts martial across the services race was not a statistically significant factor in the likelihood of conviction. And so I’m wondering, What do you believe that data says about the military justice system? Could it indicate that the bias is more probable in amongst our junior leadership ratings, who are recommending service members for N. J. P. Or courts martial, that amongst the senior leaders who are ultimately sentencing them? Congresswoman, I think this goes back to the first question, and you can really dovetail the answer into the first question of what you just asked if we when you when you look at what a commander does of setting the tone and then the commander setting that command climate, you and you look at this issue and you end you and we think we know where the answer is, where the targets are, where the targets of opportunity are that is left of 15. We know then that where this has to happen, where the unconscious bias needs to be eliminated, where the mentoring and the inclusion happens is at first line E five supervisor over those if the foreign below chairman and when you look at setting that command climate, knowing commander has to do that and then letting that supervisor do that. That’s where we need to focus the help, the training, the data and everything we need to collect. Did anybody else want to add anything to general work? Ruggles comments. I think, Madam Congresswoman, I think from the Marine Corps perspective, there’s two pieces thingy. A report was pretty clear that all those they showed bias in the data they cannot conclude unlawful bias because we don’t fully understand that data. So I think Number one, you know, to general PDS point, we have to kind of get left of the problem and figure out what this data exactly means. But second and more importantly, in something that the common on has made clear is that commanders have to get after this and setting the tone, training and educating their supported personnel about the importance of this of equality and diversity in the force and how that makes us stronger. And I think that’s something that the common on himself has really gotten after and that we’re taking very seriously in the Marine Corps. Well, I appreciate all that. I mean, certainly what you want to back up the data with, you know, every cause analysis along all of those sort of stage gates. And I understand that the Air Force is going to be completing and on in the survey’s General walk Brockwell. Will those findings of the surveys Will those be public? Yes, Congresswoman. I imagine they will be how I’ll defer all that to the I G. Who is is running it. So we do get an independent. Look at this. I can’t believe those weren’t. Those results will not be open and transparent. All right. Miss Trayvon’s time is expired. Thank you. Will now go to Mr Brown for five minutes. Thank you, Madam Chair again. I want to thank you in the ranking member, a representative jelly for allowing wave on this afternoon. I want to thank each of our Panelists were testifying today One. Thank you for your service to our nation and in our armed forces. And for your stated commitment to end racial disparities in our military justice system. We are at a difficult time in our nation’s history. A time when racial injustices scene in the violence against black Americans by local law enforcement. A time when persistent racial disparities in health are illuminated by the stark contrast we’re witnessing in the just proportionate prevalence of Kobe 19 death and infection among black and brown Americans a time when almost every racial disparity experience in this nation in our educational systems are criminal systems. Our workforce are compounded by this pernicious pandemic, and today we’re at a difficult time in America’s military. An institution that led this nation in racial integration almost 75 years ago is now confronted with bone white nationalism in our ranks, an institution that saw the first African American first captain, West 0.40 years ago, now retired Army General Vince Brooks. It only yet it took until last week before we could confirm our first African American service, Chief General Brown of the Air Force. And we still have a military who’s 61 4 star flag officers Onley include two Afghan American officers, among them an institution that benefited from the courageous service of nearly 1000 pilots during World War Two who completed the Tuskegee training program. Yet today there are only 446 minority fighter or bomber pilots and navigators and young forces less than 2% of our pilots are African American, an institution that after World War Two in 1950 51 began to operate under the UCMJ a, which in many ways has been way ahead of the changes, the positive changes in the civilian criminal justice system in terms of the rights of the accused and of defendants. Yet today grapples with racial disparities in the disciplinary treatment of men and women. And you’ve won. That is where we are today, in our nation and in our military, and it cannot be where we are tomorrow. I have work to do, and we need to do it now. Gentlemen, I take a lot of stock in the work of the Joo and they came back. I thought with the with a thoughtful report and list of recommendations on how we can get better. And my question is, what more did you need from Congress in order to complete your evaluation of the causes of any disparities in the military justice system? And are you consulting any outside resource Is that have expertise in this area? In order to complete this evaluation, we start with the army will go down in the Air Force, and I am a PT this man. Think, Congressman Brad, thank you so much for the question as to what we need from Congress. I think a Zai mentioned my statement that Karen, attention the desire, the passion you bring to these issues to help us help ourselves to see ourselves as critical. So I think that we’ll continue. I know it will. And I want you to know personally, I welcome it, and so does the army leadership with respect outside. Resource is, sir, where were sort of within with respect to cause ality. We’re in the very early stages of figuring out what can cause this. So we’re developing a framework? Well, this this very week and last week to figure that out, I fully expect that that will include outside assistance. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Abrahamic. Sir. I think Section 5 40 i of the Indy A was excellent road map. I think at that point was emphasized by the witness from the G a. O. I think the focus on data collection and then solid assessment understanding and then what to do about the disparities is is the right way ahead. I agree with General PD on outside assistance. I think that is going to be important. This Look, this look be deliberate. That would be thoughtful. Um, and it’s not gonna be over quick. We’re gonna have to continue this effort. And that’s where I think the outside resource is convey incredibly helpful. General Rockwell. Sir, I I have I have a lot of faith in what r i g independent reviews going to do. Ah, I have a lot of faith that they’re gonna look at this internally and holistically. I also have ah, a lot of faith in our more manpower and reserve in a one team who’s leading the effort now, You asked the question about what kind of outside help we’re getting, Uh, that that that man power and personnel team is getting a lot of outside help. Eso I have. I have quite a bit of faith in that to see what else can we do to get to get to this elusive solution set here, General? Actually, Mr Congressman, I don’t believe that this time we need any help from Congress, but I appreciate the opportunity to testify here. We just have a lot of work to do. We just have to get after this that we realize that we’re at the beginning. We’re looking at Dad. I was trying to understand the data, but there’s a lot of hard work that has to be done. And again, I keep, you know, you know, the common on is my boss. I keep mentioning him because he has made this an important plank in his competency, and he’s driving it. And I think that that’s what we need throughout every echelon of the Marine Corps. Commanders need to drive this. They need to make it important. And I think that starts thes candidate open conversations about how we get after this. And that’s what the Marine Corps is doing. Thank you, madam Chair. Thank you, Mr Brown. Mr. Kelly, you have any final words? All right, generals and admirals. Thank you so much for your participation today and for your commitment to the rule of law. Let me just end with a few comments. 5 40 I was put in the nd a Not by you, not at your request, but Congress is request. So while you’re relying on that now too, recognize that there was work to be done. It would have been a whole lot better if it had come from you. General ECI. You’ve said it a number of times. It starts at the top and you are right. And I hope you convey to all of your, um, chiefs of staff how critical this is to the Congress of the United States. General PTU said that much like sexual assault and sexual harassment in the military, we have to focus on this with the same laser focus that we have provided for that issue. And I agree with you. Um, we are at a transformational point in this country civil, civilian and military wise, and I think that there is a lot of work to dio. There’s a lot of data that but to make sure it is across all of the services and that there is transparency, I hope that we don’t have to have another hearing where we have outside groups coming to us and saying we can’t get the information G a o in a number of circumstances said she couldn’t get the information. We have to be forthcoming to the American people. We intend to continue this work. We will have you back to see how you’re doing and hopes that you’re going to be making great strides in dealing with the anti racism that we have now have to in view in society. Generally with that, we stand adjourned no.